Late to the Party: On Kids
I had some unscheduled time yesterday and used a portion of it to see what animal people are talking about and one thing stood out as surprisingly controversial: having kids and even hating kids. (I started with Ryan, who led me to Josh here and here).
I’m not sure about anyone’s age, so this could be a generational thing. Or it could be a function of my upbringing. I was raised with the idea that kids would likely be in my future, but more important was the idea that I shouldn’t be in a rush and I should follow my dreams and get educated and travel the world first. The message was: Once you have a child, your life as you know it is over, and you have to devote your energy to your child, so if there’s anything really important to do, you’d best get it done before you have a child.
Next, I was a nanny in graduate school. I lived this fantasy life of having three kids (including a newborn) and driving a Volvo station wagon around the North Shore of Long Island. I was the kids’ caregiver every day, all day, then went to school at night for my MA in English and American Literature. I loved the kids, but became acutely aware of what it takes to care for them and after two years I was completely exhausted.
I also had this judgmental feeling of: why have kids if you’re not going to be their parent? Isn’t that the idea?
I realized that for me it was important to be a parent, and to raise a child who would be compassionate, independent-minded, and make the world a better place.
Unfortunately, I was too busy getting educated, traveling, working and following various dreams that, as the cliche goes, I forgot to have kids. More accurately, kids simply weren’t a priority for me. And once I married someone ambivalent about being a parent, the idea of kids left the table for a while. And when we both decided we’d like to be parents, the probability of having our own kids was minuscule due to my advanced maternal age. Of course there are hundreds of kids right here in Florida who need homes.
I never associated dislike of children with "the movement." What I have always seen is that vegans and activists of all sorts tend to think long and hard about having children, and when they do have them it’s with intent regarding what they’ll be exposed to and how they’ll be raised. And they have fewer children (one or two).
Hating kids is strange to me, though I do understand not being interested in them, particularly if they can’t yet speak. And I do understand being annoyed when they’re next to you watching an R-rated film (that happened to me recently) and they’re screaming. But it’s the parents you should be angry with.
In fact, when I think of all of the problems we have in our neighborhood with what have come to be known as "the miscreants" (11-14 year old boys), their behavior is due to their lack of supervision, support and discipline. I’ve asked them why they include various anti-social actions in their daily repertoire, and they’ve told me that they have no one to talk to, no one listens to them, they’re bored, and their parents both work and aren’t home until 7pm. I ask them if there’s a grown-up they trust and can talk to, and they say there isn’t. As terrible as their behavior is, I understand where it’s coming from. (And yes, I’m creating a list of after-school programs in the area for the kids.)
As far having your own child who will then tap the world’s resources goes, my belief is of the zero population growth variety. And you can’t be responsible for other people having five kids or 10 kids (I have a client who’s one of 10), so take that off the table. I’m responsible for me and my family. Not having a child because your neighbors had more than their share makes no sense to me.
Furthermore, I think having a child when you have a clear idea of how you want to change the world is a philanthropic act. Spending a couple of decades raising a good citizen is no small commitment and no small feat and the idea should be supported by others in the movement who want to change the world.
After all, as my husband now says about his former self: You can’t leave it to those people to create a new generation. This planet needs a fighting chance, and it’s gonna come from people who want to fight for it. Raising someone like that is a gift to the world.
Hi Mary – the Yukon government recently denied funding for a vital homeless youth shelter in Whitehorse. Many of the young people who would use the shelter are ex-foster children who had been in government-funded foster homes. This is the same government who spends $200,000 per year (with lots of extra little wads of cash for brochures, sled dog industry propaganda films, etc.) for exploiting sled dogs.
I have placed a story page about the homeless youth on the SDWD website.
http://sleddogwatchdog.com/angels_nest
CBC News: 'Whitehorse teen's death renews calls for homeless shelter'
http://origin.www.cbc.ca/canada/north/story/2007/11/15/carlick-shelter.html
Mary, I have also placed your 'Thinking critically about animal rights' document on the SDWD homepage.
I have very often told people that I hate kids.
The reality is that I have zero desire to have kids, and in fact have a strong desire to NOT have kids. I'm not comfortable around most kids, and I do sometimes go out of my way to avoid them. For my friends who have kids, though, I have always assumed that any invitation (extended to me or by me) includes the kids. I've even gone on a family vacation with some good friends and their very young son. I'm not going to ask to hold the baby and take the kids out on my own, but I also don't get pissed (at the kids or my friends) when the kids aren't acting like robots.
I don't really hate kids, but here's why I have said it and will likely say it in the future: I get beyond frustrated with people who insist, strongly, that "it is different when they are your own" and "you will change your mind."
I will NOT change my mind – I do not want to have kids. Not everyone will accept that, and it is to those people that I get downright rude and blunt and tell them that I hate kids, and say it as strongly as I can. Even that doesn't always get them to give up.
Likely I should just take a new tactic and tell them to butt out of my personal business.
I can't really speak for others who say that they hate kids, but I can definitely sympathize with those who express that sentiment, regardless of whether it is an accurate statement for them. After a while, it does become a habit, a way of trying to shortcut through the annoying "you'll change your mind" conversations.
I've never been into infants, but I know exactly why. I don't get all excited about cuteness and I like my freedom. Personally, I like kids a lot, BUT only if they were raised well. It's the kids who are neglected and full of angst that are the irritating obnoxious one. The creative, witty, awkward kids are the best! I can relate to people who don't want to parent children, but don't understand understand the contempt some people have. Kids have so much energy and enthusiasm. I find the "good" kids very healing and inspiring. They also aren't bigots like most young and older adults are.
Still, I think it's better not to (re)produce more kids in such uncertain times and with so many homeles/parentless children already. It's not radically different in my mind from those who breed dogs when so many dogs are wandering the streets. I think we can make differences in other people's children's lives by becoming community organizers. But for those who desire their own kids, I think adoption is best.
Terry,
Thanks, as always. Angel's Nest is such a great idea. Perhaps private grants can help them. One if the organizations I work with on this issue gets zero funding from the gov't, and the other gets most of its funding from the gov't. I'd say it's the government's problem, as they created it and should fix it, but alas, it doesn't work that way . . .
Deb,
You bring up something I neglected to talk about–people trying to convince you to "join the club" and who feel that life isn't complete without children. That is not at all how I feel, and it's so frustrating that when some people have kids they feel it's okay to tell all of their friends that they should, too. In response, I have been known to say, "No thanks. It's not that interesting to me, right now." Of course, they take it personally, because it's interesting to THEM. Dave just reminded me that people in his office badgered someone about kids, and the guy responded, "I hate kids," and that shut everyone up. Dave used the line recently and said, "It might sound harsh, but it works like magic!"
Adam,
I've never been into infants, either. I think that's because they don't do much in terms of relating. And though their parents swear they have fantastic personalities and communicate in their own ways all day long, that's simply not my experience. When I was a nanny, the newborn was all about eating, sleeping, pooping and peeing, and though I was happy to attend to his needs, that seemed to be the extent of the relationship. The 3 and 5 year olds were far more interesting to me.
I decided over 30 years ago against having children. I knew then the sacrifices it would take to "do it right". I saw the responsibility would require foresaking much freedom and virtually haulting "personal growth". Rightfully, parenting is such an absorbing duty that the adult gets "stuck" in whatever stage his or her child is in. I see it all the time and I think that's sad. Of course the exceptions are vegan parents – they've obviously done their "emotional homework" and are raising their children with a valid, just and fair moral code.
With my decision, a "dink" household has enabled me to "retire" by the time I was 50. Some who are my age, baby-sit the grands, while the parents labor for the money it takes to raise the child. Today's kids seem to "need" so much gadgetry – It really wasn't the same when I was growing up. Of course it's the parent's fault – they want to give their kids "everything" every other kid has (and more). Most parents are horribly guilty of indiscriminate consumerism. Has anyone ever strolled the toy isles? It's all "China"… They don't have an ethical line of where the play things originated from. That their children "want" it is enough. This orgy of primary-colored plastic widgets fills the dumps for the next generation to inherit. I think "vegan parents" are more aware of the difference between "want" and "need".
I still have problems with "jumbo-size" families – especially when there are so many kids who could use a loving home. I'm not thoroughly convinced that making a "carbon-copy" of one's self is all that critical. Adoption seems like the most responsible (and compassionate) route to take. But they defend that they "want one of their own"… as if their genes and DNA are somehow superior. That irritates me to no end.
I also cringe at those "uber" parents attempting to raise super-achiever kids. These kids have a busier schedule than most adults. Soccer, T-ball, football, drama class, dance lessons, etc.-(for a year)… then it's on to something else. I realize kids should be exposed to a wide variety of activities, but it would be wise if some of those "experiences" included how to just amuse themselves. Kids should have time to reflect and ponder who they are and what their connection is to the rest of the world. Kids I know don't have enough "down time" for all that… I fear the outcome will be a lot of insensitive, shallow and detached adults. This creates a future populated by many "meanies"… Non-vegan kids represent a whole lot of (meat) mouths to feed. I'm saddened that the animals will pay that price with their miserable lives.
I might have missed a few "Kodak moments"… but my photo albums are still full of memories made with my "fur family". Despite my "nullipara", child-free choice, my life has been happy, rich and full. I'm thankful I have the luxury of redeeming my own "inner child"… and nurturing "her" with new found vegan principles. (If only omnivore parents could grasp what damage they do to their kids). I'm certain I would not have come to this awareness if my center was focused on a family. I would probably have spawned a few "meat-eaters" and had "grand-meat-eaters". In this way, I'm sure I've made the right decision.
If I knew any vegan parents I would support them in every way I could – they have a difficult world to negotiate through… And if we are attempting to create a culture which seeks to end violence, raising vegan children is critical to that movement. Omnivore parents need to question what they were taught… before they pass on the same hypocrisy to the next generation.
Hooray for vegan parents! I wish I had them…
a) I get frustrated by people who conflate veganism with environmentalism with low population growth. I don't see controlling population as either realistic or moral. To me, it's not part of the equation and it doesn't belong in the discussion.
b) I get frustrated by people who tell me to reproduce.
c) I get frustrated by people who tell me not to reproduce.
d) I can't stand kid-hate. Kids are just little adults. They are all individuals who deserve respect and opportunity.
e) I want kids, but like Mary, it's not a priority. I may reproduce or I may adopt. Either way, my sex life and my reproductive organs are my business, no one else's.
f) I think involving children in the AR movement is critical. I think we need more children's stories, more kids cookbooks, more animal-friendly toys, more vegan education, more vegan school lunches, etc.
Deb — As I mentioned in my blog entry, I find it incredibly obnoxious when someone tells someone else that "you'll change your mind" or "you don't know what love is until you have a kid of your own…" That's all absurd and extremely rude. In that case, you're welcome to break out the "I hate kids" line.
Besides, you did well around Rasine! You masked your discomfort well. 🙂
Elaine — I think you summed it up nicely. Let's let everyone make their own decisions and work on making sure kids in the movement *stay* in the movement and aren't disenfranchised by it before they turn six.
Hi Elaine, "I think involving children in the AR movement is critical. I think we need more children's stories, more kids cookbooks, more animal-friendly toys, more vegan education, more vegan school lunches, etc."
BOY! you said it! I actually was wondering if there were any "age appropriate" vegan websites out there? HSUS and PETA2 both have kid oriented information… but neither seems quite "on the mark". And this certainly wasn't what I was thinking of either:
http://www.superdeluxe.com/sd/contentDetail.do?id=D81F2344BF5AC7BB43D153E6DB0561DE3C4531E7C46C9173
There really is so very little out there for kids.
And Dave Warwak with his "peep show for kids" isn't quite the ticket either, but he does know the importance of getting kids to understand the issues:
http://www.archive.org/details/AnimalRights2008Conference-EngagingChildren
Here's a hopeful look at tomorrow:
http://vegetarian.about.com/gi/dynamic/offsite.htm?zi=1/XJ/Ya&sdn=vegetarian&cdn=food&tm=26&gps=103_1249_744_422&f=10&tt=14&bt=1&bts=1&zu=http%3A//veganhealth.org/articles/realveganchildren
I salute you… vegan parents, vegan aunts & uncles… cousins, neighbors and friends. If we really want to change the future for animals, (and planet) – No doubt it begins with nurtured and informed kids.
I love kids. I have always just been drawn to children and babies. I can't really explain it.
I am also concerned about over population too. Someone can feel both ways.
I'm glad there are caring involved parents who will raise their children with compassion. Too many parents have children and then just yell and insult and belittle them. Too many parents don't teach their children right from wrong.
I am in favor of adoption but it can be very hard. Do adoption agencies discriminate against vegans?
That superdeluxe video doesn't really sound like it's for kids, Bea! Francione fans–there's a mention of "moral schizophrenia in the video.
Elaine,
You mention one more thing that frustrates me: When people tell me if I really cared about the planet I wouldn't have a child. And if I really want to be a parent, I have some kind of obligation NOT to have one, but to adopt.
Lyda,
Adoption as a vegan can be difficult. I have friends who are vegetarians who told me to refrain from mentioning anything about veganism. I know several LCSWs in my area who would do our home study, so it might be easier for us than for others. There's definitely an issue there, and the degree of difficulty depends on where you are and who you know, unfortunately (or fortunately!).
Mary, I did catch the mention of "moral schizophrenia" – no, I didn't think that website was something for "young kids"… maybe "meatrix"-age teens though…
I like the useful information and intelligent presentation I found here: http://www.vegetarianteen.com/animals.shtml
And… if you'd like a little hope in the future – There's lots of kids that seem to be getting the message on this Veggie Teen Forum
http://www.veggieboards.com/boards/forumdisplay.php?f=111
These kids are dealing with non-vegan "parents", school dissection issues, anger at the way 4H keeps animals in cages, "leather" and many other things I thought only "adult vegans" worried about. I'm sure for some it's "trendy" but I hope they stick it out long enough, to learn enough, to make the right decisions.
I'm late to the party on this post, but I have to say that I think NOT controlling the human population is what is not moral. From a strictly animal related pov for this blog, nothing has a more negative effect on other animals than the large and increasing number of humans and the various forms of pollution and habitat destruction that comes with them.
I strongly favor a much smaller human population. I think human population is going to crash on its own soon anyway, but in the meantime I would support first financial incentives to not have children and if that didn't work, more restrictive laws.
Personally, I decided long ago as a teenager that I had no interest in having children. Later in life I almost married a woman with two kids who called me dad and I loved them dearly. I've worked with great kids in various environmental/animal programs. I don't hate kids; there's just far too many of them.
If there must be "too many kids" – please let them be vegan. They might be raised with a better awareness of sustainability… and things might not go so bad so fast… maybe.
But surely we can offer help to vegan parents trying to get schools to provide healthy lunches and wider varities of food. PCRM has an action alert urging government reassess school lunch menus.
http://support.pcrm.org/site/MessageViewer?em_id=21661.0&dlv_id=27921