On My Goddaughter Who Rides Horses
I’ve been in Princeton since Friday, visiting my three god children (I’m their legal guardian too, which is kind of scary for both them and me). The oldest, Gillian (age 9), is showing and jumping horses, and yesterday was her first competition. I opted out of attending.
I don’t talk to the kids about what I eat and why, and their parents (my cousin and his wife) eat the Standard American Diet. Evidently, Gillian’s been paying attention and has begun asking her mom why I eat the way I eat. Gillian loves animals and is a sensitive, compassionate girl. Riding horses, for her, is an extension of her love of animals, and no one is offering a different perspective.
Yesterday morning, Gillian refused to come downstairs all dressed in her riding gear. She was crying, and when her mom asked why, she asked: Does Mary think horseback riding is wrong? And her mom said yes. Gillian was afraid to face me. But when I went to speak with her, she didn’t cop to any of it. She just said she was nervous, and I wasn’t about to interrogate her as she had to leave the house in five minutes.
Does anyone have any suggestions for Gillian’s mom (or me)? Gillian is clearly developing a moral limb, all by herself, and there’s really no support for what she is thinking and feeling in her house. Her parents would want to support her, but they don’t know any vegetarians in Princeton and they’re not about to stop eating meat themselves.
What are the best books for 9-year olds? Anyone know of websites for meat-eating parents whose children are questioning eating animals?
The dicey thing is that I’m not Gillian’s parent, and I don’t want to appear to be "pushing an agenda." The door is open a tad, but I don’t want to fling it open the rest of the way, as that’s not my place (in my mind), and my veal-eating cousin is like a brother to me and I need to tread lightly.
Gillian must be an angel. I wish I had some suggestions to offer…but unfortunately I cannot think of any that would not create conflict between Gillian and her parents.
Mary,
Raising vegetarian children by Joanne Stepaniak is an excellent book for chidren whose parents are still eating meat and for parents who are introducing their children to veg diet. On Prad's site towardsfreedom.com there are many resources for books, information re: veg diets, and a childrens site called CAAA children against animal abuse by Carmen who became veg at age 10. I think however what will ultimately happen is Gillian will begin to question your life style and engage in you in discussions. Yesterday was my annual family reunion with about 150 strict catholic relatives who are meat eaters. I brought vegan burgers and other food to feed my brother who became veg a year ago and was pleasantly surprised by the questions I received from both adults and children. I had brought an article about the pope saying catholics should abstain from meat, chicken and fish and eat a vegetarian diet. My most fanatical catholic relatives who of course revere the pope grimaced stating they had no idea he was vegan then went to check their meat on the grills. Several kept grilling me (no pun intended) about the difference between being veg and vegan. Then they tried to torment me about shoes (which are pleather) and car (which is mostly cloth and vinyl)but all in all it was a good experience. I too tread lightly because we don't want to have the door slammed in our faces just as it is opening. Several kids asked me for sites to go to and some wrote down different vegan products to purchase. If you remain close to Gillian your expamle will be the best teacher for her. Since she already has a passion for animals I think she will seek you out as a mentor.
The biggest problem is your cousin who is like a brother to you. I have lost contact with my brother because I took his teen aged daughter to a restauant and told her I wouldn't support an industry that tortures animals so if she got meat she would have to pay for it herself. She went home and told her dad and instead of him saying she looked like she survived eating healthily he never spoke with me again. There you have it. My brother and I were as close as 2 people could be and he was so incensed that I imposed my values on his daughter he refuses contact with me.
If I had it to do over again I would do the same thing. Weigh it all out as not to alienate her parents.
I couldn't tell from your post how receptive Gillian's mother was to discussing this with her further, or to having you discuss it with her, though it appears Gillian's not ready to talk to you about it yet. Seems to me that her mother and your brother are the key to whether this discussion can go further. Might be best to see whether the seed sprouts on its own…
Tricia said: "I had brought an article about the pope saying catholics should abstain from meat, chicken and fish and eat a vegetarian diet. My most fanatical catholic relatives who of course revere the pope grimaced stating they had no idea he was vegan then went to check their meat on the grills".
Is this for real? And if it is, are you talking about the present pope? I know he had commented something about factory farms (http://www.animalrightsmalta.com/pope.html), but I do not recollect that he is vegetarian or vegan.
Kenneth,
I received an email some time ago with Pope Bendictus saying he was at a conference for youth in 2003, and that he ate veg and told the all those at the conference they should abstain from partaking in such institutionalized cruelty and eat a vegetarian diet. Then you have the Dalai who recently visited Australia saying everyone should eat veg, but when he was here a few months ago he dined on veal, pheasant and ice cream, raving about the chefs. go figure! If you would like you can email me and I will forward the popes email to you. email Mary and she will forward my address to you – don't know if I can put my email on here.
Tricia: Reading the pope's message on this would really be interesting. If you want to, you may contact me through my blog (look for "Contact us" on the right hand column) and I'll email you back so you know my email address.
Thanks
Greetings. Just got back home.
If the pope were a vegan, that could really help me with my dad, who is Roman Catholic and profoundly in need of a change in diet. I'd love to see what he had to say, too.
Part of the Dalai Lama thing is that Buddha was a beggar. He would eat meat if it was prepared for him by someone hosting him, but he preached nonviolence (and that included not eating animals). My guess of what's behind the Dalai Lama eating animals (although I was under the impression that he recently came out against it and said he would stop), is that he eats what his host provides for him, like Buddha. Unless of course the veal and ice cream incident are things he ordered in a restaurant, in which case my theory is worthless.
And thanks for the tips for Gillian (and the warning). Later yesterday, my cousin, who is packing on the pounds and is normally very thin, asked about ways to lose weight/get healthier, as did his wife. So I do have a bit of an invitation. A bit.
Mary, Don't think your opinion is worthless, but the Dalai Lama ordered the veal and other meat items in a restaurant. As I recall from a few articles on it, the chefs thought they would be cooking vegetarian, but he enthusiastically requested meat. Also, I studied some Buddhism several years ago and recall reading that the Buddha told his disciples that they could take meals that had meat, but they could only eat the vegetables and had to wash the meat filth off first.
I'm surprised and quite pleased to hear that the Pope is at least a little sensitive to animals. The Bible gives some consolation to meat eaters, but also makes it clear that it's not the ideal situation. That's pretty good considering how many political hands the Bible must have passed through to get to today.
Speaking of religions and scriptures, I must say that the scriptures revered by the Hare Krishna devotees thoroughly condemn all animal slaughter and meat eating. It's stated as plain fact that a meat-eater cannot know God. One difference that's probably a little odd for the vegan folks to wrestle with is the fact that the Hare Krishna scriptures emphasize the value of milk, saying that it nourishes the finer tissues of the brain that help one to see the spiritual reality. It is part of the medical science of ayurveda. Also, by offering the milk to Krishna, the cow is directly engaged in His service, thereby guaranteeing the cow a pious human life in its next birth. This has to be understood along with the fact that cow protection is considered absolutely essential to civilized society, what to speak of religious life. The milk is considered a byproduct of cow protection (rather than raising cows for the milk), and this 'ahimsa milk' normally sells for about $12 per gallon as it must pay for the lifetime protection of the calf (who is never separated from her mother). It's not unusual to see 15-year or even 20-year old cows very peacefully grazing in the grass on the Hare Krishna farms.
More on the subject, I also want to say that having animals and even utilizing their unique gifts can be a positive thing. At my house, we have several farm animals including a cow, 3 sheep, 2 goats, and a flock of guineas, plus several more typical pets. (The dog and cats get vegan food, but the cats frequently take voles and mice, rarely birds.) We also have a blue & gold macaw parrot who was awarded to us in court. Though we internally reject the idea of ownership of anything (http://vedabase.net/iso/1/en), what to speak of owning animals, the fact is that if we did not claim ownership of this bird, he would be in much worse circumstances. Actually none of these animals would have fared very well if we didn't 'have' them.
But what I wanted to say was that there is nothing wrong with humans having loving relationships with animals. Animals can benefit from this, not just in terms of being provided food and shelter, but emotionally. Who is to say that the horse does not enjoy his or her relationship with the girl?
My father raises and trains race horses, which I would not condone but for the fact that it has helped him grow emotionally in ways that I don't think he would have otherwise, and he takes good care of the horses. My oldest daughter, who is 10 and has never tasted meat, loves to ride horses. Actually I don't encourage it, but not because I think the horses dislike it. Of course, some aspects they might not like so much, but I don't like everything I have to do either. Laziness doesn't benefit a horse any more than it does a person.
In any case, it's rarely helpful to push people beyond their capacity. If the girl is becoming sensitive to animals' situations, then why not gently guide her to being a vegetarian rather than letting her feel negatively judged for riding a horse. I'm sure you know the world can be quite cruel; but riding horses are usually treated reasonably well, and they're at least kept out of the slaughterhouse. They may not be treated according to your standard or mine, but the way people are today, a horse kept for riding is pretty lucky IMHO.
Pandu,
I would never say there's something wrong with people having a loving relationship with nonhuman animals. Though I don't think we should own them, I do realize we have created a situation that we now have an obligation to attempt to resolve, and that happens through ownership of cats and dogs. But let me clarify the horse issue: the owners are not my cousin and his wife. The owners are people who bought horses to start a riding academy. At least two of the horses that were there last season were "too difficult" and are no longer there. They could be anywhere. They could be forced to work in a roadside show. They could be dead. They do indeed find their end in slaughterhouses. I have ghostwritten several books that involved the horse world, and I can tell you that many people, once in that world and who discover what goes on, quickly seek an exit.
Finally, I didn't speak to Gillian about riding. I asked her questions to determine what she was thinking and she didn't divulge anything so I didn't push her. She did mention, however, that she doesn't like kicking them and she wouldn't want someone to kick her, which made me want to cry (but she was already crying, and I didn't want to make things worse).
"Gillian loves animals and is a sensitive,compasssionate girl; and that she doen't like kicking them(the horses)."-Mary Martin.
Yes 'Gillian' is an angel,she represents the "true love" that is so desperately needed in this ever changing world…BRAVO!
'Peaceful Prairie Sanctuary' is a perfect example of "love" for the nohuman animal's without "exploiting" them.
I've imagined what it would be like to feel like actually owning an animal, and it was really creepy. I had to immediately stop it. Here in Pennsylvania, ownership of animals is the law, so that's not something I can control. If I want to protect domesticated animals, I have to own them. There's another kind of ownership where a person claims the right to full control of something; that's when people can get cruel. On the other hand, I might own an animal with the idea of protecting it, and then forcefully dominate it for its own good, for example when I shear our sheep.
Our sheep are alive because we stepped in when a man was selling his sheep farm. I bought a pair of sheep, they need shearing each year, and my wife spins wool and knits and weaves. On any given day, they'd rather not have me shear them, but they need it done for their health, so I have to catch them and hold them by force. They do quickly relax, but they'd almost always run off it I let them.
I can understand that commercial wool production operations are probably very nasty places, but I don't see anything wrong with our owning sheep. (Not that anyone said there was, but I suspect the potential is there.) My point is that in general if there is some sickness, such as common people's relationships with animals, the preferred response is to make it well. So we own animals, but really we serve them. They may have some product they don't need, that we can take. We don't profit financially from our animals, much the opposite, but we find the friendly service relationship very gratifying. I don't see any harm in that.
I find it interesting the discussion is about the moral judgment of riding horses vice the well-being of the child. Maybe ask yourself if you are prepared to support Gillian and her germane interests even if it is something you wouldn't choose to do yourself? At 9, she shouldn't be expected to "cop" to something that is your baggage, not hers. It's your feelings she is trying to internalize and doesn't understand. You need to explain to her that you don't choose to ride horses, but you support her in what she loves to do. Children need unconditional love and support.
The whole story reveals (I discovered a bit later) she has been asking her mom about the origins of things for a while, and her mom has been honest with her.
Children deserve honesty.
And though she initially loved riding horses, she became quite upset with having to kick them, and she has decided for herself–and I never even spoke with her about it–that she doesn't want to ride them anymore. (Of course, we'll see what happens.)
This child is developing morals that are very different from those around her all by herself. Her "well being" is the same thing as supporting her in her questioning and her developing moral code, wherever that ends up.
And as far as supporting and loving her unconditionally, what if the activity she loved to do was dismembering small animals for fun? Would you still believe I should say I choose not to do that, but support her decision to continue? Supporting children for everything they do doesn't do them any favors. It's an insult to their cognitive and moral development.
Why do domesticated sheep need shearing? Their free-living cousins aren't sheared, and they're fine.
Exactly, Mary. Gillian questioned you. You did not impose your feelings on her. I think it's wonderful Gillian has the maturity and selflessness to think about horses, beyond her own enjoyment. She's a very special child.
Also– concerning child rearing in general– it's not in the best interest of children to support anything and everything they might want to do. Love of children requires guidance.